and you can. start. to. flow in welcome across town peter lavelle a historic vote yes but will it change anything on the ground the palestinian bid to upgrade its international legal status at the united nations was passed by the general assembly with a huge majority but in this vote actually moved the palestinians toward the goal of a complete sovereign state of their own and create the conditions for a lasting peace with israel. you can. start. to cross out the u.n. vote i'm joined by running guess an intel of the he is a former adviser to prime minister ariel sharon and strategic consultant on media and government relations in gaza we have rami khouri he is a correspondent for the electronic intifada and in new york or boston norman

finkelstein he is a political analyst and an author all right gentlemen cross talk rolls in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want norman let me go to you first that the resolution passed numbers were expected wasn't a big deal last week now it's a very big deal why. well the reason it's a big deal is because originally when the resolution was contemplated there were serious doubts about whether the europeans would support it but in the last few days because of what happened in gaza the has been a significant break in european support not backing the united states not backing israel but this time joining with the majority in. the observer status for the palestinians so that's the shift also there is a certain shift which is because of the staring military defeat that israel suffered in gaza there is now realization that the powers to the end state which

has been talked about for so many years the palestinian state may not turn out to be the one the europeans would like and may turn out to be an islamic state so there is fear and they defer to the palestinian authority the wrong kind of powers to the end state will come into existence when it gets an intel of eve how do you feel about the vote is this a major setback for israeli foreign policy i think i would use the word the unholy trinity it's not a major setback for israel because it's really a few tiled decision that will make not much difference it's a bad decision bad resolution for the palestinians because it advances them nowhere it's two steps backwards rather than two steps ahead and for the peace process itself it's a resoundingly a defeat because you can't start peace if there's no bilateral negotiations you can't start peace with unilateral decision you can start peace when you launch

political warfare instead of sitting around the negotiating table and talking directly about the issues and i mean how do you feel about the resolution you're in gaza. yes i mean. the decision to bed at the u.n. to win the recognition of palestine as a member state is as a step that the palestinian authority has been trying to take and actually. only partly because of the failure of the peace of process for a long time ago since the oslo accords the palestinians and israelis have failed to . to achieve peace within their pilot talks and and there have been so many obstacles to watch this mainly there is really continuation of settlements building and the west bank and jerusalem and

also into israeli enter incisions not to give some kind of hope for the palestinians in the west bank or the road blocks or very many in the gaza strip they have been imposing a blockade on the gaza strip and the siege. so there has been a clear failure another going fair of the peace process between israelis and palestinians talk about something normal if i go to you what's the next step now ok i mean can they sit down bilaterally or is the palestinians going to use international institutions to get what they want now. and the problem has been if you look at the record of the negotiations there's been one major obstacle to trying to resolve the conflict the palestinian side. we have to use as the baseline for resolving the conflict we have to use the baseline of international law and international laws there's the whole of the world sparing the whole of gaza and the whole of east jerusalem are occupied palestinian territories so the power

steering point of departure is international law the point of departure abuse really is we reject international. as a matter of fact former foreign minister tzipi livni during the negotiations in the novelist in two thousand and eight she said flatly she said flatly i am a lawyer which she is and she says i am against lot in particular international law now one of the purposes of the resolution on the side of the palestinian authority that was just passed one of the purposes was to say to the israelis the u.n. has now endorsed the fact that the june nine hundred sixty seven border has to be the basis for resolving the conflict ok when he gets in is what are palestine's borders now as a result of this resolution. allow me just take issue

with what norman said about you know israel is against international law and the history of the conflict the history of international law involving did not start in one thousand nine hundred seven sixty five years ago with the partition resolution by the way which the palestinians rejected and we accepted it started long before that i really don't want to discuss the past i want to dig a little but present clear and present where i calling but what's to roadmap for the present we don't need to waste your time on the i'll tell you why don't we do for a word please you know we're not wasting time i'll show you this because there is i'll tell you why there has to be a recognition of the palestinian of the right of the jewish people to have a state of their own in their ancestral and he said well what are the villagers and now ninety what are the borders are now because i would get no recognition that will recognition no no that is the borders the borders the final borders will be decided in direct negotiations this is the hallmark of all international agreements

all international decisions prior to this stage that the negotiations face to face negotiations all issues on the table and the final borders will be decided not to laterally not to have by bilateral and we already sketched we said where the borders born less and we talked about an economic forum in which you like to relax but that has no time i don't. know i mean not to release reply. it's true that the delineation of the precise border between israel and palestine has to be resolved in political negotiations the problem is the framework the very slime we begin with the june one nine hundred sixty seven border which the international court of justice has endured is the border between a prospective state of powers star and real or do you begin arbitrarily the israeli position is we'll begin wherever we want the position of the powers to near

authority has been the baseline has to be june nine hundred sixty seven now i have read the text of the new resolution that was passed in the united nations and the turks are all the correct things it says on the international law it's inadmissible to acquire territory by war and it serves the borders of the powers the new state are the june one thousand nine hundred sixty seven border if israel had accepted those arms and hands are on board until the conflict would be over already mr gibson we'd like to reply to that. now yeah yeah i think i think again to east sorry norm it sensibly corrected this the nine hundred sixty seven lines were not borders they were cease fire line armistice line final borders would have to be decided to negotiated and another thing resolution two forty two the whole mark the basis of the negotiation talks about secure and recognized borders for israel which will be decided in negotiations right the sixty seven borders lot secure what not

recognized suddenly the palestinian decide well that's the borders this is an arbitrary decision it has to be decided within the framework of negotiation i refer you to two for two and three three eight your knighted nations security council resolution you want to stick by the law you have to stick by the law all the way norman. i'm very happy the strict part of the law and i'm sure mr gerson knows that the authoritative interpreter of international law is the international court of justice and thence two thousand for this. opinion the international court of justice that the whole of the west bank the whole of gaza and the whole of east jerusalem are occupied palestinian territories now wants to argue that these are only armistice lines and that means postilions can make a claim on haifa or they can make a claim on television if he says there is really no border whatsoever these are

just the armistice lines from the one nine hundred forty seven and i'm sure mr gissin will agree that the palestinians can also make a claim on the whole of israel rami do you want to jump in in gaza no no he was going to i mean gaza yes yes yes actually. they do. something that will bring the momentum to the palestinian cause from the respective of the palestinians as i just mentioned earlier mentioned that the failure of that piece of process has moved the palestinians as opposed to palestinians to callender their palestinian state. of the one nine hundred sixty seven borders through the e.u. and this is a significant rather some believe for the palestinians because it has taken place within the united nations general assembly which already has a number of physicians on the palestinian question that have been bending and not

implemented up to this moment especially the know the one hundred ninety four. that calls for the return of palestinian refugees into their homeland and palestine more than sixty seven million not just our state is now mr gets to go ahead to how we go to the free go ahead mr getting ahead before we go to the break what one ninety one ninety four again. misinterpretation and the war pigs the whole thing what resolution one ninety four talks about the resolution of refugee problem filing following the war that palestinian refugees jewish refugees pray tell me i have to jump in here to have to jump in here we have to go to a break after that short break we'll continue our discussion i'm palestine staying with our team. if you. want.

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to keep it straight. to want to. welcome back to cross talk on people about how to mind you were talking about the u.n. vote on palestine. to keep it straight. ok norman in new york if i go back to you are we seeing is there is the ending of the occupation any closer now with this vote in the united nations. i think it's correct to say that we might be entering the end game but the end game can take

a long time israel in the course of less than two weeks suffered a staggering military defeat in gaza and now in part because of the military the three star during political defeat in the united nations and so you can see can judge from romney gibson's rather agitated tone that he's clearly aware that israel is now on the defensive now they can keep saying to themselves that this you were involved is trivial but just about a month ago they were entering a state of extreme agitation at the prospect of the un vote they were threatening to overthrow the post and you know therapy they were threatening to withhold monies in the past and enough already they took the u.n. vote very seriously and now they're suffering the second is staggering the feat at the united nations so i think we can be optimistic we might be entering the end

game but the end game will take time to get him please reply. yes give me a couple more of these a staggering defeat so virtual victories like the one we suffered in gaza and the problem are the resistance of the palestinians will be laid to rest they will have to look for other ways to fight israel so come on let's let's look at the facts that look what happened on the ground not the virtual victory like the one they're celebrating in a hollow or in gaza today the real issue is not to side i'm not trying to win points i'm trying if you want to advance the palestinian issue come and talk to us we are ready to deal we are ready to get you give you a better deal than anything you can ask him to give you or the radiance can give you or the rest of the arab world which is torn by the arab spring right now that's the real issue where the palestinian want a palestinian state not three one virtual stated the u.n. one hamas state in gaza and another state will which its leader is vying for

a victory that's not the way to run an issue of a people who want to have a homeland your people want to have a homeland it's not enough to have that liberation you have to build your nation towards that and i don't see the palestinian do it through the united nations not through the international court in a normal not through drive our men revive the road. to jerusalem please reply norman. our. i do think that romney has complete lucidity of mind he's clearly not suffering from outside but i'm not sure why he's saying the problem is the palestinians won't negotiate surely he's aware of the latest phase in the goetia they began in one nine hundred ninety three which is to say a slow in september and that's now nearly twenty years later and of anyone reads through the record of those negotiations and i haven't read all the transcript the lego just need one structure in conclusion let me strike me inclusion let your main

finish i will give me your opinion gentlemen let me run inish go ahead rami you really have to let me finish if you read through the if you read through the twenty year record the one conclusion you reach the outstanding conclusion is nothing happened it's like the children's song the wheels on the bus go round and round and the reason nothing happened is because the palestinian side said let's apply international law and resolve the conflict and the israeli side said we reject international law we're going to decide this resolution the conflict on the terms that suit us was the problem that was the us another palestinian side is looking for endorsement from the united nations that the basis for resolving the conflict has to be international law ok let me jump in here norman let's go to gaza i mean i

usually agree with you but i think there's one thing that has happened is that a lot of illegal settlements in the west bank let's go to gaza now yes rami go ahead yes actually i just want to respond to that romney did speak to. yes please i would like to refer to that building of the nations and mr gates and has just. said sort of advice to the palestinians that instead of going to internationals and to too many parties to resolve their problems they have to build their nations what kind of the nations that a nation that they want to us to build while israel has been very destructive of the palestinian civil building civil society buildings palestinian government has said it is even at the time of i myself or anybody even before had to ask him to power in two thousand and six as well as destruction of the palestinian territories either in west bank and gaza it started actually back in two thousand after the failure of the camp david talks which really definitively means that israel has not

been wanting the palestinians and themselves to have a peace are based on the land formula land for peace which is recognized by the united nations actually and where the basis of the oslo accords so once the began david talks failed israel a started the system a destruction of the palestinian autonomy areas in west bank and the gaza strip so the palestinians as you have the normal have has just raised. the point that the palestinians are seeking some sort of momentum for their peace talks with israel i want to do enter the emotion of their time with through the night in tel aviv's go ahead sir. i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry just the facts are wrong i mean we supply water we supply electricity to gaza although we disengage in two thousand and five we allow fifty thousand workers to come and work in israel from the west bank because their economy is on on its face we're doing everything to help the palestinian nation building it's not publicized but we're doing it we didn't ask

for anything in return all we ask is that the palestinian in good faith stop boycotting israel stop using economic warfare law warfare against israel what are they what are they implying after they will have a declared virtual state a nonmember state in the un they'll go to the court the international court to try us as criminals i mean we've done more to the palestinians to the livelihood of the palestinian people given the drought and given the economic and food prices that is only down in the middle east today as a result of arab spring it other causes more than all the arab states together so come on let's look at the fact of change your mind. the norm and provide for the pantry was very generous to the palestinians if i could just sum up what we just heard or feel or granny is digging his own grave and i rather pity him. here on issuance of our water and for israel. israel.

israel steals eighty percent of the water in the world sparing for itself the consumption of of and is really wrong that's a lie war or for our library law and some guy around us powerless among in fact and i'm sure you are. around it or are you are we all we have to familiarise you so that we are into lies you have to get out of there with your dollars and the flag is real down to the real world i know you can use to know their facts nobody disputes. nobody. norman can hold a firm to see these are you know they're for us in the worst. consume are not in the last second thousand are now on the wrong underground who are of an average probably still near where healy really. is real it's about four times their consumption. of the total power of the total border of their liberal the water

supply is. still nothing to do with it. so to talk about now that's that's a lie right or is a lie i think there are sociological reasons. what you say in order to hold water for our flag went like. no it's not a lie let's go back to god here gentlemen go ahead it's a lie ok you're in god is it a lie. no it is not a lie it's reality they look to city for example in gaza is being provided about more than forty five per cent of electricity is being produced by the gaza power plant which israel actually destroyed and bombarded in two thousand and six and it's for the reader of it's a soldier ok this electricity plant has been destroyed was destroyed by israel and continues to be affected by israel's embargo but as reza blockade on gaza and

sometimes that the electricity planting gaza shuts down completely and cannot be produced as a produce a single image and here gentlemen i go to tel aviv if i had to go back to tel aviv the older less is you know becoming more and more isolated at this vote shows that . well i had said i don't think so i think that there are fifty percent or more nation that voted for it this is lip service to our palestinian cause that is trying desperately either through bringing arafat's back to life or through a resolution on november twenty ninth to put the issue back to the agenda when the real refugees in syria and elsewhere in the middle east as a result of the arab spring are getting second place and the palestinian are trying desperately to put their refugee deluxe issue on the table at the expense of the other the real refugee problem the real problems of the middle east we ready the regional situation in a regional solution to take care and to help not only the palestinians but the arab

countries as well but the palestinian cause i'm going to give you a line just really on this program that your man let me clue you get in the last minute is there more hope for the palestinians today as a result of this vote here i think as a result both of what happened in gaza and what's happening at the united nations you can say there's reasons for optimism the only place where i don't think there's reason for optimism is there is no me here i would agree with ron it isn't no amount the resolutions is going to force israel to withdraw there has to be a mass movement among palestinians forcing an israeli withdrawal but once the palestinians do mobilize and there is a smooth men then i think you can see from the united nations vote international public opinion and the opinion of states in the international community they will rally behind the palestinians and israel will finally have to pass packets bags and return to its own borders ok thank you very much norman and thank all of my guests

here many thanks my guests in tel aviv gaza and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. and. you can if you want to. see me speak your language. programs and documentaries in arabic it's all here on the t.v. reporting from the world talks about six of the ip interviews intriguing story for you here. in trying. to find out more visit our big don't all teeth don't call me.

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